Will the video be available for download after it airs? Or alternatively, will it be available on youtube, or any other video service that allows variable playback speed?
Shame. I wouldn't buy a 32-bit device in 2014. You'd be a fool to get one with 64-bit so close, unless you usually upgrade your devices every 12 months or less. Then it's probably not going to be a huge issue.
Please update us on the scroll lag issue on the rMBP that you guys famously made aware last year. I want to see how far Apple has come with drivers/GPU/CPU in order to fix this issue.
I'd also love if you guys could comment on screen ghosting issue on this gen's rMBP.
Please include bits on Geforce 780Ti. What is expected speed of this card in modern games? When do you expect availability of Cards capable of 3840X2160 gaming without combining the two of them?
Actually can you confirm that the Haswell MacbookPro's with Iris graphics use the 128 MB of eDRAM? I finally got some time with one and I can't reference to that L4 cache anywhere in the system under OS X 10.9. Generally something like this can still be referenced even though you're not directly using it like addressable memory (see that the L1, L2 and L3 caches are reported).
Also where would you put the actual performance per watt of Cyclone in reference to Intel CPU's? It is fast for mobile but if you drop the voltages and clock on an x86 chip, what would the best comparison be to equalize performance?
And for the reverse, if Apple wanted to go full tilt and scale clock/voltages upward while adding more cores, cache and memory controllers, where do you think it would land in terms of both performance, power consumption and the obvious performance per watt metric? And of course compare it to Intel. Was Apple's claim of the A7 being desktop class performance a thinly veiled threat to Intel of what they're actually capable of?
While this a mobile centric show, I was still hoping to hear some discussion of AMD's R9 290x video card and nVidia's G-Sync technology. I'd throw Mantle into that mix though other than its announcement, most of its disclosure is going to happen at a developer conference soon and thus a postponed timeliness. These new technologies have gotten me excited as if we're about to enter a new golden age of PC enthusiasm. With the PC market shrinking and gamers being a remaining stronghold, it is nice to see some well deserved focus again.
"Actually can you confirm that the Haswell MacbookPro's with Iris graphics use the 128 MB of eDRAM"
The 13" rMBP does not use the Iris Pro graphics with the eDRAM. It uses the standard Iris graphics GPU. The 15" rMPB, on the other hand, does have the Iris Pro graphics with the eDRAM.
"Was Apple's claim of the A7 being desktop class performance a thinly veiled threat to Intel of what they're actually capable of?"
For a mobile processor, they're pretty fast. As per Gruber's review, the A7 SoC in the iPad Air is faster in Geekbench 3 and Sunspider than the 2010 MB Air. The iPad Air was running iOS 7.03 and the MB Air was running OSX Mavericks with Safari 7.0. You can read it here;
While Geekbench cross-platform results aren't meaningful at all, it isn't surprising that the iPad is outperforming an Core 2 Duo MBA in javascript benchmarks. Given that Cyclone performs (very roughly) on par with Silvermont, and Intel said Bay Trail performs on par with ULV Penryn--i.e. the chip in the 2010 MBA--it is the expected result that the iPad Air should have roughly the same performance as the 2010 MBA.
If you were really blown away, bear in mind that the 2010 MBA is using a five year old, 10W CPU--if you actually were expecting "desktop class" performance, you're going to have to go back quite a bit further in time to climb back up the TDP train. So what we really have, is that over the last five years, 10W performance has been squeezed down to a 2-4W package. That's certainly an accomplishment, but I doubt anyone will be really blown away if you put it to them like that, rather than saying "I have a three year old Mac that is outperformed by my iPad!"
I think even Nvidia said their Cortex A15-based Tegra 4 beats Core 2 Duo - so yeah. Not a huge surprise. Plus, next year we'll see GPU's that will perform better than PS3 and Xbox360's GPU's (although it might be a while before we see many games taking advantage of them - but we'll probably still see something like Battlefield 3 on them).
I was thinking of scaling the A7 to run at 10W or higher to see where it would compete in Intel's line up. That 2010 MBA with a 10W CPU has a total 21.5W system power consumption under load* vs. ~11W for the iPad Air. A direct CPU comparison can be estimated at 10W vs. ~4W max, widening the difference.
One thing is clear, Apple's A7 has an IPC that is equal or better than the Nehalem/Westermere generations of chips. This is Apple's second CPU architecture and the first 64 bit ARM architecture in the public space. They're certainly aiming higher for the A8. More than likely there is room for further IPC gains but Apple may not adopt them in ultra mobile chips due to power overhead. If Apple were to move to OS X and Mac Books to ARM though, these platforms would be able to accept a higher power load to further increase performance.
Sunspider sucks. But yes, these mobile chips are getting more than fast enough for most people, and next year we'll even see Android devices with 4 GB of RAM in them, and with KitKat they will run faster with ARM than Windows ever could on Intel's Core i7, so they're clearly getting "desktop-class".
I had some time with the 15" MacBook Pro with the GTX 750M. Digging around in Terminal under OS X 10.9, I couldn't find any reference to L4 cache. sysctl and various other low level utilizes are generally good about actually reporting what is inside a system. I downloaded gfxCardStatus try to force the system to use the GTX 750M. GeekBench memory tests were within run/run variation from what I could tell attempting to force the discrete GPU vs. forcing integrated. This could just be an issue with gfxCardStatus and GeekBench. I just with there would be some verification some where in the system where the 128 MB of eDRAM is at least recognized.
Request for the current state of affairs for mobile device testing both in terms of recent changes (if any) in the test suite or vendors and in terms of Chris' long awaited audio overhaul :)
A question for the show: What is your view on "true small flagships"; like the Sony Xperia Z1 f released in Japan, (Z1 mini for the rest of the world) and well the iPhone 5S (and it not being alone in this market anymore)
Do you see things changing a bit? what are your thoughts for the android market and the smartphone market as a whole?
How does the anandtech staff view the small flagships, like the Xperia Z1 f/mini, changing the market? both the android market and the smartphone market as a whole?.
I think it does, even right away, but it may not be a huge issue right now. However, even a year from now, with iOS 8, it could be, let alone with the iO9 and iOS10 upgrades, that these 64-bit devices are supposed to get up to 3 years from now.
iOS10 will probably be worse on these devices than iOS7 on iPhone 4 right now.
I would appreciate it if you would mention in your reviews what scaling the high-resolution androidphones and tablets use. For instance a old HTC One S with a 4.3" screen with a resolution of 540*960 has a scaling factor of 1.5. A new LG G2 with a 5.2" screen with a resolution of 1080*1920 has a scaling factor of 3. Both these devices show exactly the same amount of information since the effective resolution of both is 360*640. Buying a new high-resolution "phablet" is effectively buying a senior-citizen phone. It does not show anything more than the smaller screen phones, it's just bigger and the icons and text is easier to read. It would be nice if the manufacturers would give an option of setting the DPI scaling to the users.
Off topic, I really like your podcasts and reviews. :)
Why? Do you like cluttered phones with 100 icons on them? You can install Nova or some other launcher than, and set how many lines and columns of icons you want.
You totally missed the point. It's not about cramming icons to your launcher, it's about letting app's utilize the larger screen sizes. No launcher known to me let's you change the systems DPI setting.
Hi Anand & Brian! Can you please talk about the Nexus 5's camera software. Mine is slow to grab focus and take a picture. I'm getting some good results with patience but surely that latency isn't necessary? Can you also talk about the ISP in Snapdragon 800 please? Cheers, Geoff :)
I would love to hear some thoughts about the number of CPU cores in phones. I find it interesting that people are questioning Apple's decision to go 64-bit but no one really questions quad-core phones any more. Which is the better approach? I suspect that faster, dual-core in a phone is a better choice than slower quad-core. It seems like there aren't many people that can take full advantage of a quad-core computer, let alone a quad-core phone. Are there ways in which those extra cores are being well utilized on phones?
Before people respond saying how I am an iSheep, I actually am an Android user (Nexus 7 and just ordered the Nexus 5).
Couldn't agree more. Based my usage on N4 which it throttles a lot in tropical country such as Indonesia, I prefer dual-core offer quad-core for more responsiveness due to no throttling reaching peak frequency. :)
When N4 is hot in daytime non-AC outdoor and using 3G connectivity, the transition animation micro-stutters like a lot which is kind of frustating. Hope N5 has better thermal dissipation and jank free at all. *finger crossed.
So...how much is Google paying you to do this? Just a joke, hangouts is a really cool idea and maybe this could be a use case where it is actually used.
Well count this as a failure from someone who has been with you since you were not able to drive a car. I have spent 15 minutes trying to find the secret hiding place on the internet where this video is now streaming. Next time try giving us a simple link that takes us to the video.
I like the video format. I can easily extract an .mp3 if I really want to listen to it while working out or something. But I have it open on my PC, play some flash games on the side or browse a bit and it is nice seeing you guys talk. :)
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46 Comments
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Nimer55 - Monday, November 4, 2013 - link
Will the video be available for download after it airs? Or alternatively, will it be available on youtube, or any other video service that allows variable playback speed?danstek - Monday, November 4, 2013 - link
Hangouts on Air uses Youtube to livestream and it will automatically be saved on Youtube as well.Nimer55 - Monday, November 4, 2013 - link
Awesome! Thanks. It's what I thought, but wasn't sure if that feature was optional or not... I love these podcasts, I learn so much from them.MrCheesecake - Monday, November 4, 2013 - link
Will this be downloadable as a podcast afterwards?ImSpartacus - Tuesday, November 5, 2013 - link
It better be! I listen to Anand & Brian when I run.I won't be a happy camper if it's not on their podcast feed.
Vigneshj - Monday, November 4, 2013 - link
Any hints about upcoming Snapdragon 64-bit SOC?dylan522p - Monday, November 4, 2013 - link
I believe they still have one morenkrait based SOC in Q1/2 then Q3/4 I believe they are moving over to ARM V8.Krysto - Tuesday, November 5, 2013 - link
Shame. I wouldn't buy a 32-bit device in 2014. You'd be a fool to get one with 64-bit so close, unless you usually upgrade your devices every 12 months or less. Then it's probably not going to be a huge issue.SignalPST - Monday, November 4, 2013 - link
Please update us on the scroll lag issue on the rMBP that you guys famously made aware last year. I want to see how far Apple has come with drivers/GPU/CPU in order to fix this issue.I'd also love if you guys could comment on screen ghosting issue on this gen's rMBP.
silenceisgolden - Monday, November 4, 2013 - link
My Nexus 5 arrival and this happening at the same time sounds like a great afternoon.pattycake0147 - Monday, November 4, 2013 - link
Could you please post it for viewing at a later time for those of us unable to watch live.Rishi100 - Monday, November 4, 2013 - link
Please include bits on Geforce 780Ti. What is expected speed of this card in modern games? When do you expect availability of Cards capable of 3840X2160 gaming without combining the two of them?kyuu - Monday, November 4, 2013 - link
I think you missed the title: Anandtech *Mobile* Show. Desktop GPUs aren't likely to be included in the discussion.Homeles - Monday, November 4, 2013 - link
They're mobile when thrown.Kevin G - Monday, November 4, 2013 - link
Actually can you confirm that the Haswell MacbookPro's with Iris graphics use the 128 MB of eDRAM? I finally got some time with one and I can't reference to that L4 cache anywhere in the system under OS X 10.9. Generally something like this can still be referenced even though you're not directly using it like addressable memory (see that the L1, L2 and L3 caches are reported).Also where would you put the actual performance per watt of Cyclone in reference to Intel CPU's? It is fast for mobile but if you drop the voltages and clock on an x86 chip, what would the best comparison be to equalize performance?
And for the reverse, if Apple wanted to go full tilt and scale clock/voltages upward while adding more cores, cache and memory controllers, where do you think it would land in terms of both performance, power consumption and the obvious performance per watt metric? And of course compare it to Intel. Was Apple's claim of the A7 being desktop class performance a thinly veiled threat to Intel of what they're actually capable of?
While this a mobile centric show, I was still hoping to hear some discussion of AMD's R9 290x video card and nVidia's G-Sync technology. I'd throw Mantle into that mix though other than its announcement, most of its disclosure is going to happen at a developer conference soon and thus a postponed timeliness. These new technologies have gotten me excited as if we're about to enter a new golden age of PC enthusiasm. With the PC market shrinking and gamers being a remaining stronghold, it is nice to see some well deserved focus again.
shameermulji - Monday, November 4, 2013 - link
"Actually can you confirm that the Haswell MacbookPro's with Iris graphics use the 128 MB of eDRAM"The 13" rMBP does not use the Iris Pro graphics with the eDRAM. It uses the standard Iris graphics GPU. The 15" rMPB, on the other hand, does have the Iris Pro graphics with the eDRAM.
"Was Apple's claim of the A7 being desktop class performance a thinly veiled threat to Intel of what they're actually capable of?"
For a mobile processor, they're pretty fast. As per Gruber's review, the A7 SoC in the iPad Air is faster in Geekbench 3 and Sunspider than the 2010 MB Air. The iPad Air was running iOS 7.03 and the MB Air was running OSX Mavericks with Safari 7.0. You can read it here;
http://daringfireball.net/2013/10/the_ipad_air
teiglin - Monday, November 4, 2013 - link
While Geekbench cross-platform results aren't meaningful at all, it isn't surprising that the iPad is outperforming an Core 2 Duo MBA in javascript benchmarks. Given that Cyclone performs (very roughly) on par with Silvermont, and Intel said Bay Trail performs on par with ULV Penryn--i.e. the chip in the 2010 MBA--it is the expected result that the iPad Air should have roughly the same performance as the 2010 MBA.If you were really blown away, bear in mind that the 2010 MBA is using a five year old, 10W CPU--if you actually were expecting "desktop class" performance, you're going to have to go back quite a bit further in time to climb back up the TDP train. So what we really have, is that over the last five years, 10W performance has been squeezed down to a 2-4W package. That's certainly an accomplishment, but I doubt anyone will be really blown away if you put it to them like that, rather than saying "I have a three year old Mac that is outperformed by my iPad!"
Krysto - Tuesday, November 5, 2013 - link
I think even Nvidia said their Cortex A15-based Tegra 4 beats Core 2 Duo - so yeah. Not a huge surprise. Plus, next year we'll see GPU's that will perform better than PS3 and Xbox360's GPU's (although it might be a while before we see many games taking advantage of them - but we'll probably still see something like Battlefield 3 on them).Kevin G - Tuesday, November 5, 2013 - link
I was thinking of scaling the A7 to run at 10W or higher to see where it would compete in Intel's line up. That 2010 MBA with a 10W CPU has a total 21.5W system power consumption under load* vs. ~11W for the iPad Air. A direct CPU comparison can be estimated at 10W vs. ~4W max, widening the difference.One thing is clear, Apple's A7 has an IPC that is equal or better than the Nehalem/Westermere generations of chips. This is Apple's second CPU architecture and the first 64 bit ARM architecture in the public space. They're certainly aiming higher for the A8. More than likely there is room for further IPC gains but Apple may not adopt them in ultra mobile chips due to power overhead. If Apple were to move to OS X and Mac Books to ARM though, these platforms would be able to accept a higher power load to further increase performance.
*Source: http://anandtech.com/show/4528/the-2011-macbook-ai...
Krysto - Tuesday, November 5, 2013 - link
Sunspider sucks. But yes, these mobile chips are getting more than fast enough for most people, and next year we'll even see Android devices with 4 GB of RAM in them, and with KitKat they will run faster with ARM than Windows ever could on Intel's Core i7, so they're clearly getting "desktop-class".Kevin G - Tuesday, November 5, 2013 - link
I had some time with the 15" MacBook Pro with the GTX 750M. Digging around in Terminal under OS X 10.9, I couldn't find any reference to L4 cache. sysctl and various other low level utilizes are generally good about actually reporting what is inside a system. I downloaded gfxCardStatus try to force the system to use the GTX 750M. GeekBench memory tests were within run/run variation from what I could tell attempting to force the discrete GPU vs. forcing integrated. This could just be an issue with gfxCardStatus and GeekBench. I just with there would be some verification some where in the system where the 128 MB of eDRAM is at least recognized.willis936 - Monday, November 4, 2013 - link
Request for the current state of affairs for mobile device testing both in terms of recent changes (if any) in the test suite or vendors and in terms of Chris' long awaited audio overhaul :)cheinonen - Tuesday, November 5, 2013 - link
I'm hoping to get a final date for when we can start doing the new audio testing. It's going to be awesome, that's really all I can say.Vi0cT - Monday, November 4, 2013 - link
A question for the show: What is your view on "true small flagships"; like the Sony Xperia Z1 f released in Japan, (Z1 mini for the rest of the world) and well the iPhone 5S (and it not being alone in this market anymore)Do you see things changing a bit? what are your thoughts for the android market and the smartphone market as a whole?
That is it :)
Ralos - Monday, November 4, 2013 - link
Maybe a word to tell us if you plan to review the new Tegra 4 Transformer tablet, the TF701T?Vi0cT - Monday, November 4, 2013 - link
How does the anandtech staff view the small flagships, like the Xperia Z1 f/mini, changing the market? both the android market and the smartphone market as a whole?.Wade_Jensen - Tuesday, November 5, 2013 - link
I'd really some quick thoughts from Anand to sum up the surface pro 2 after the brief review and normalised power efficiency/battery life.speconomist - Tuesday, November 5, 2013 - link
Would it be possible to touch on Android 4.4 as well? Or is it too early for that?Also some comments on Shield would be nice as well.
Klug4Pres - Tuesday, November 5, 2013 - link
Maybe too soon to discuss this, but IOS 7 versus Android 4.4 could be an opportunity to reflect on the direction of these two rival OSes.Also, is Apple's stinginess on RAM (still 1 GB even on ipad Air and 5S) having a real impact on its customers?
Krysto - Tuesday, November 5, 2013 - link
I think it does, even right away, but it may not be a huge issue right now. However, even a year from now, with iOS 8, it could be, let alone with the iO9 and iOS10 upgrades, that these 64-bit devices are supposed to get up to 3 years from now.iOS10 will probably be worse on these devices than iOS7 on iPhone 4 right now.
kibatronic - Tuesday, November 5, 2013 - link
I would appreciate it if you would mention in your reviews what scaling the high-resolution androidphones and tablets use. For instance a old HTC One S with a 4.3" screen with a resolution of 540*960 has a scaling factor of 1.5. A new LG G2 with a 5.2" screen with a resolution of 1080*1920 has a scaling factor of 3. Both these devices show exactly the same amount of information since the effective resolution of both is 360*640. Buying a new high-resolution "phablet" is effectively buying a senior-citizen phone. It does not show anything more than the smaller screen phones, it's just bigger and the icons and text is easier to read. It would be nice if the manufacturers would give an option of setting the DPI scaling to the users.Off topic, I really like your podcasts and reviews. :)
Krysto - Tuesday, November 5, 2013 - link
Why? Do you like cluttered phones with 100 icons on them? You can install Nova or some other launcher than, and set how many lines and columns of icons you want.kibatronic - Tuesday, November 5, 2013 - link
You totally missed the point. It's not about cramming icons to your launcher, it's about letting app's utilize the larger screen sizes. No launcher known to me let's you change the systems DPI setting.gfieldew - Tuesday, November 5, 2013 - link
Hi Anand & Brian! Can you please talk about the Nexus 5's camera software. Mine is slow to grab focus and take a picture. I'm getting some good results with patience but surely that latency isn't necessary? Can you also talk about the ISP in Snapdragon 800 please? Cheers, Geoff :)HarryATX - Tuesday, November 5, 2013 - link
Awesome! BTW could you guys push this to the podcast audio stream as well?F1shbone - Tuesday, November 5, 2013 - link
Another topic could be the new Lumias! Especially 2520.Tanclearas - Tuesday, November 5, 2013 - link
I would love to hear some thoughts about the number of CPU cores in phones. I find it interesting that people are questioning Apple's decision to go 64-bit but no one really questions quad-core phones any more. Which is the better approach? I suspect that faster, dual-core in a phone is a better choice than slower quad-core. It seems like there aren't many people that can take full advantage of a quad-core computer, let alone a quad-core phone. Are there ways in which those extra cores are being well utilized on phones?Before people respond saying how I am an iSheep, I actually am an Android user (Nexus 7 and just ordered the Nexus 5).
chrone - Tuesday, November 5, 2013 - link
Couldn't agree more. Based my usage on N4 which it throttles a lot in tropical country such as Indonesia, I prefer dual-core offer quad-core for more responsiveness due to no throttling reaching peak frequency. :)When N4 is hot in daytime non-AC outdoor and using 3G connectivity, the transition animation micro-stutters like a lot which is kind of frustating. Hope N5 has better thermal dissipation and jank free at all. *finger crossed.
Saruji - Tuesday, November 5, 2013 - link
So...how much is Google paying you to do this? Just a joke, hangouts is a really cool idea and maybe this could be a use case where it is actually used.ezorb - Tuesday, November 5, 2013 - link
What about he nexus 8 is it 4x3???dgdosen - Tuesday, November 5, 2013 - link
Would be interesting to hear your thoughts on the best combination of value vs options for the rMBPsdryloch - Tuesday, November 5, 2013 - link
Well count this as a failure from someone who has been with you since you were not able to drive a car. I have spent 15 minutes trying to find the secret hiding place on the internet where this video is now streaming. Next time try giving us a simple link that takes us to the video.dryloch - Tuesday, November 5, 2013 - link
I rescind my last comment. I guess you started late. I can now see the video. Thanks.Death666Angel - Thursday, November 7, 2013 - link
I like the video format. I can easily extract an .mp3 if I really want to listen to it while working out or something. But I have it open on my PC, play some flash games on the side or browse a bit and it is nice seeing you guys talk. :)mi1stormilst - Tuesday, November 19, 2013 - link
How about a link? Who runs this website? ;-)thekimbobjones - Monday, December 9, 2013 - link
When is the next Podcast? We're dying here...